The CW Source

Дин, конечно!

Dean.*__*

It is so difficult.I love Jensen.So I voted for him.

Oh whatever. If you think there was bullying, then I'm never going to convince anyone otherwise. Luckily my interest in this has waned so you don't have to hear from me again.

Go ahead and feel insulted. No one has explained to me how someone saying "Vote bibro!" is any different than "Vote Dean!" You can't call one bullying without the other. But if the context or whatever is just too much to overcome, then okay. Fine. I'm done. If you want to think my efforts are insincere or naive or stupid or manipulative or whatever, then that's your choice. I'm tired of trying to prove otherwise. I made my efforts and it seems they were in vain so my interest here is spent.

Sincerely, I hope you feel better about fandom and that the show starts making everyone a little happier.

Once again. If you look, you'll see that people were saying it was unfair to vote for one or the other, because they're a team. If you go to the semifinals post, you'll see someone railing against the blog for even considering posting a showdown between the two of them (I forget the words used, but it was harsh). People were sick of that. One person mentioned being annoyed with that, and suddenly it's the end of the freakin' world.

"that maybe no one was bullying anyone here"

How in any universe is this a compromise? It's only a compromise from people who felt offended (or rather, a total capitulation), whereas you get to sit back and say you were right... which may seem like a sweet deal to you, but since we saw bullying, of COURSE none of us are going to accept that. But, that makes us poor at compromise, because we disagree with you.

Fine idea of compromise you've got there. :P I'm totally, TOTALLY convinced that you just want peace and harmony. *rolls eyes*

I am very happy to bask in my childishness. I have always admitted to this being very immature to even partake in.

And you very nicely managed to call me both childish and hypocritical. Childish I deserve as much as anyone else going off about this crap. As for hypocritical, I think I've managed to get away from that. The use of insults--please note a few posts down where I apologize for the term being used at all. I've reached a better place. As for my martyr complex, maybe I'm just fishing for someone to tell me I'm wrong--or for someone on the other side to say it's NOT all the blame of Sam girls. To my memory, and I haven't checked, I don't think I've seen any admission or give from the other side, no matter how many times I try to play nice. Everyone seems more than happy to just let it be the Sam girls fault, which, yeah, kind of annoys me because blame goes all ways.

Really, in the end, the fact is BOTH sides have hurt feelings and we'd have to deconstruct the entire evolution of fandom to figure out how and why it started. That's the context everyone just needs to grasp. You can't lay the blame of this at Dean girls, Sam girls, bibro girls, Kripke, whoever. There's been misteps on all sides--so while maybe the initial over-sensitivity to innocuous comments can be understood in that context, it certainly doesn't excuse them, because in the grander scheme of things, this poll hadn't gone south.

So give context credit to everyone--not just those who you happen to side with. I've been trying to do that here, and trust me, it goes against my initial feelings. But yet still, I haven't seen anyone on the other side even willing to SHARE blame in this, or at least to say there was no need to freak out.

I guess I keep hoping someone here will even agree to that much, will agree that maybe Dean girls have some of the blame, that maybe no one was bullying anyone here, that maybe it sucks to sometimes be a Sam girl for a lot of reasons. We've all had our feelings screwed over from time to time in this fandom and you could cite your instances as easily as I could. I'd like to see this GO somewhere, come to a happier conclusion than just everyone walking away thinking how crappy the other side is or how fandom would be so much better if certain people would just shut up and leave. But maybe that's just me. So we could sit around and insult each other very subtly or not so subtly or we could actually try to UNDERSTAND each other.

So I'm not really trying to have the last word here because this isn't an argument to be won, necessarily. I just sincerely want to feel good about how fans are interacting with one another, if only on the level of this pointless poll thread.

"Again, this is a bald-faced lie. People didn't want to be told how to vote, or that they were bad people or unfair for voting a certain way, which is their absolute right. Why would you lie? Is it because you know you're wrong, and you can't win the argument by being honest?"

HEE! I'm a liar now, huh? So I'm a hypocrite, a controlling manipulator who wants to force Dean from the show and Dean girls from fandom, I'm the cause of all problems in fandom, AND I'm a liar. I am on SUCH a roll! Since clearly I have nothing better to do than to fabricate stories about a who's hotter poll in my free time. Yes. Of course. That's it.

OR, maybe, just maybe, it could be that I'm telling the truth. A few posts AFTER the freakout said something similar and they were not nice and I've said that many times and I've also said that they are as wrong as anything else here.

But at the time, when someone posted telling the bibro contingent to "stop pressurizing" no one had told anyone how to vote--in a real serious manner. I mean, there were "How can you choose?!" posts but they were along the exact same lines of "Dean of course!! He's way hotter!" Unless you're saying that those type of posts are telling people what to do, then no one was pressuring anyone.

No one was bullying. I'm not LYING. I'm looking at the posts and the progression of ideas and quite frankly, I have no idea what posts you're referring to that are bullying. If I remember correctly, two came AFTER the bullying accusation was made, but certainly not before it, which is why I'm harping on this so much. People were being called bullies when no bullying was happening. That's not fair. And it was groundless. Much like being called a liar when in fact you're not lying. It sort of makes you mad, just in principle, if you can imagine that.

I'm not lying, and would have no purpose lying over something as inane as this. And frankly, your accusation holds no ground until you can prove that bullying occured BEFORE the first "don't bully me post" came into play, then I have no reason to continue on like this because either you're not willing to go back and LOOK at the order or you're the one whose just desperate to win an argument. To your credit, I think it's the first.

***Heck yeah, this is all contextually based. And it's a difficult and deep context with lots of issues brewing on either side. ***

Actually I find it neither deep nor difficult to understand. It comes down to fans of two different characters/actors each showing their resentment for what they perceive to be the other guy getting more. Whether it's attention and popularity within fandom, story importance or character development, it's all about wanting more for their favorite guy. Quite natural and nothing wrong with that per se. The problem is when people start telling people on the other side that they are wrong to want more while insisting their guy is the only one that deserves more.

***No one has ever tried to ignore that--here or anywhere. It's impossible to be active in this fandom and pretend like you can ignore it. Doesn't change some things, though, and pinpointing where the crap started here does seem relevant to the extent of figuring out that context.
Self defense is a good way to describe things. Like when people defend against being called bullies for saying "Vote for both!" I mean, bullying?! Context or not, that's not bullying and it's really annoying to see it called that even when I didn't encourage anyone to vote that way.***

Again it depends on what side of the EDG line you've been pushed to for three years on whether you consider using peer pressure to try and convince people to vote a particular way bullying.

Personally I don't think this would even have become an issue if this hadn't already come up before - the Buddy TV poll springs to mind. And lets not forget the outraged rants on at least one SPN LJ community with people insisting that it was an outrage, just an outrage, that Dean always won all these polls and the call to SamGirl arms that came along with that.

***And if you want to believe that everyone was saying vote bibro and brow beating people, I guess that's your prerogative. It isn't any skin off my back, I suppose, so why do I care? Glutton for punishment, perhaps, or just sick and tired of being characterized as immature and wrong and insignificant and the source of all of fandom's problems.***

That's quite a martyr complex you've got going there. But if you're looking for a particular post to blame, then here ya go. It wasn't the initial let's all vote bibro so that fandom can be a happy place again posts. It was the one berating the CW Source for having the poll in the first place. That came several posts before anyone talked about peer-pressure or bullying. That was where things started to turn sour for me at least.

***Of course we're all going to disagree. That's so OBVIOUS. And I promise you, I don't care about that. I care about the way disagreements are handled. Someone should be able to say "Vote bibro" and not be told they're bullies. Someone should be able to say "Sam needs more characterization" without being told they're advocating the All Sam Show. Someone should be able to say "Dean needs more plot" without being called an Evil Dean Girl. It's not about agreement, it's about being a nice person, which I guess maybe isn't essential but really, doesn't it make life much nicer.***

No disagreement here but I don't see you practicing what you preach. However, in an effort to be nice I won't use the obvious word that springs to mind here.

***Possibly that's essentially what you're saying, but no one told the Dean girls they were a blight on the fandom (save maybe one or two posts LATER in the discussion--mostly after the bibro girls were told they were bullies trying to keep Dean from his true glory--context, like you say). And saying that simply perpetuates something that I don't think is a fair representation--just like Dean girls don't want to be called a blight, neither do Sam girls or bibro girls or ANYONE. So why wouldn't we expect someone to speak up against it? And why does only one group have the right to be offended?***

Hey speak up all you like, but it goes both ways so can't possibly expect people to sit back and take it. Which again I think is what has been going on for far too long and why this place exploded the way it did. Again context.

***Encouraging people to grow up works a little better when you've done it yourself.***

I know you are but what am I? Sorry but I'm just calling it like I see it.

Well I think I've said pretty much all that I need to say here, so feel free get the last word in if it makes you feel like you've won something. *g*

"mostly after the bibro girls were told they were bullies trying to keep Dean from his true glory"

Again, this is a bald-faced lie. People didn't want to be told how to vote, or that they were bad people or unfair for voting a certain way, which is their absolute right. Why would you lie? Is it because you know you're wrong, and you can't win the argument by being honest?

Heck yeah, this is all contextually based. And it's a difficult and deep context with lots of issues brewing on either side. No one has ever tried to ignore that--here or anywhere. It's impossible to be active in this fandom and pretend like you can ignore it. Doesn't change some things, though, and pinpointing where the crap started here does seem relevant to the extent of figuring out that context.

Self defense is a good way to describe things. Like when people defend against being called bullies for saying "Vote for both!" I mean, bullying?! Context or not, that's not bullying and it's really annoying to see it called that even when I didn't encourage anyone to vote that way.

And if you want to believe that everyone was saying vote bibro and brow beating people, I guess that's your prerogative. It isn't any skin off my back, I suppose, so why do I care? Glutton for punishment, perhaps, or just sick and tired of being characterized as immature and wrong and insignificant and the source of all of fandom's problems.

Of course we're all going to disagree. That's so OBVIOUS. And I promise you, I don't care about that. I care about the way disagreements are handled. Someone should be able to say "Vote bibro" and not be told they're bullies. Someone should be able to say "Sam needs more characterization" without being told they're advocating the All Sam Show. Someone should be able to say "Dean needs more plot" without being called an Evil Dean Girl. It's not about agreement, it's about being a nice person, which I guess maybe isn't essential but really, doesn't it make life much nicer.

Possibly that's essentially what you're saying, but no one told the Dean girls they were a blight on the fandom (save maybe one or two posts LATER in the discussion--mostly after the bibro girls were told they were bullies trying to keep Dean from his true glory--context, like you say). And saying that simply perpetuates something that I don't think is a fair representation--just like Dean girls don't want to be called a blight, neither do Sam girls or bibro girls or ANYONE. So why wouldn't we expect someone to speak up against it? And why does only one group have the right to be offended?

Encouraging people to grow up works a little better when you've done it yourself.

***There wasn't bullying--in fact, there was no conflict until the post by Anonymous on March 21 at 1:48. That's where I see it, anyway. I'm curious to know when you see it starting.***

Of course there was no conflict early on because everyone was agreeing that voting bibro was the right and just thing to do.

Then someone disagreed in a fairly mild way and then someone else agreed with that disagreement and suddenly the Sam/ bibro contingent were acting like they were under siege and fired back accusing people of being bad fans for not voting bibro.

The Deangirls then jumped in because they resented being told they were the blight on fandom yet again.

And I think that's a key fact that y'all keep overlooking. You act like all this is happening for the first time and in the vaccume
of this particular blog post. But this conflict is three years in the making with people on both side sucking it up and repressing their resentment for stuff that has been happening all over fandom. They just vented all that festering bile here.

But the biggest problem with this particular fandom is that people take even the smallest disagreement as a personal attack. Everyone must agree at all times otherwise squee is harshed and the world and fandom as we know it will end. It's stupid and immature. I mean seriously if some one doesn't buy your interpretation of the show, who cares? You watch the show for yourself and no one else and they are not the spawn of Satan because they like different things about the show.

If three people on your flist say Sam's puppy dog eyes do nothing for them, what is it to you? Maybe you don't think Dean's bow-legs are the best thing since hot buttered popcorn. It all evens out in the wash and you don't need to expend thousands of words explaining why the person who thinks differently from you is wrong and a quite possibly retarded and then act like they're writing hate speech when they don't agree with you.

Honestly people, time to grow the fuck up.

Really, I've read the comments a lot. The initial posts all were innocuous--encouraging benignly for either bibro, Dean or Sam. There's nothing different in saying "How can you choose?!" and saying "Dean all the way!!" They're innocent comments. No one was making particularly sympathetic appeals about the betterment of fandom until after the accusation of bullying came into play. Some bullying did occur AFTER the initial wank on BOTH SIDES. No one was trying to tell Dean girls they were awful for voting Dean. This bullying is not there. A few posts AFTER the anti-bibro thing came up did make bullying-ish statements, but for the most part, there was no reason for anyone to freak out about people saying "You can't choose! They're a team!" Not unless we think people saying "Dean is way hotter!" is subversive, too. Because, after all, how dare they suggest I vote for Dean! That's not where my true heart lies! STOP BULLYING ME!!

It's ridiculous, right? I mean, I think it is. I just think it is very not cool to say people were bullying when the outcry started well before anything remotely contentious was said. I mean the most contentious one I can even remotely see prior to the freak out was "No way can I chose both! They're a team!" which was present purely as personal opinion not fact.

There wasn't bullying--in fact, there was no conflict until the post by Anonymous on March 21 at 1:48. That's where I see it, anyway. I'm curious to know when you see it starting.

Well again it's funny, because that's what Sam fans have been begging for, too. It seems like divisions sprang up early, and a lot conflict has pitted the boys against each other. We can all talk about how and when we felt this shift, but the fact remains somewhat true: we've all had our qualms and it's a lack of being willing to understand the other side that proves problematic. Because we do take this crap way too seriously and feelings are easily hurt by things that we might take for granted. If I have to be honest, I've felt frustrated and alienated ever since S1 when the "Sam is selfish" thing became assumed as truth. So often arguments are reactionary and not complete reflection of real things. For example, I most often go off on the Dean HAS a storyline rant when Dean girls insist he has NO story and that Kripke is out to get them.

So I guess I think both sides have wanted the same thing and talked about it maybe amongst themselves but have no done as great a job at actually making peace with the other side. Because as someone on Sam's side, I really haven't seen this call very often. I hear about how Kripke hates Dean/JA, which to me doesn't imply anything about how they want the show balanced, just how they think JA is getting screwed.

And to be fair, most of my complaints in response have been well, look at SAM. I just don't respond well to the incessant Kripke hates Dean argument or the idea that the fandom is trying to suppress Dean girls. Those are conspiracy theories that seem more reactionary than helpful to me in so many ways. Which is how I started going off on all that here anyway. There were a good number of posts talking about the lack of Dean love from the writers and while I totally can see why you may not like the way it's being done, it IS there. Crappy, maybe. But there, yes. And to some extent if everyone else gets to bemoan the lack of Dean, sometimes I want to bemoan the lack of Sam :) Just to make myself feel better.

As for saying Dean's story needs more nuance, I meant this: I think Dean has a storyline, as has been argued (the same way that Sam has characterization). However, I can see how that storyline could be frustrating since it is not as explicitly tied to the story's action. Dean's storyline is one of personal growth, usually brought about by situation outside of him, or in reaction and growing understanding of his place in his family. I understand that Dean fans want to see Dean's storyline be more explicitly about HIM, in the sense that other character beyond Sam are concerned with him. I think this is possible, and I hope it happens for the betterment of fandom and the show.

And truthfully, I don't care much about Sam's story. It's Sam's character I think Sam girls feel slighted on overall. We crave good character moments and true heroic things from Sam--not some evil storyline that ignores everything that was developed in S1 and S2. I miss Sam's faith, his innocence, and feel like all we're seeing is a slide into darkness without much humanity in it. The show doesn't often call on us to empathize with Sam (some exceptions aside) and I so wish I could get more of that. Sam's character seems to lack some consistency and just depth overall in the quality of his dialogue and writing. And I promise, if we could trade Sam's storyline for Dean's depth of characterization, I would in a HEARTBEAT.

Nuance was a word used only to imply that characterization and plot exist for both boys. It might just not always be well done. Not that either doesn't have potential, but the fact is that this is a CW show and the writing reflects that.

"And I see more than anything else that we ALL want what's best for our guy and we'd probably be much better off arguing for BOTH better plot and characterization overall instead of just one or the other. In the end, we'd probably all be best served if they ditched the demon storyline and got us back to the brothers, putting them on equal footing in terms of plot and then hopefully also characterization. Perhaps that's the happy common ground I'm wanting to see this come to. Yes, Dean needs more plot. Yes, Sam needs more characterization. We're stronger when we AGREE on these than pitting ourselves (and our boys) against each other."

This is what Dean fans have been advocating, nay, BEGGING for, since season 1. I'm glad to see a Sam fan finally come to a similar conclusion, considering that every other time this has been suggested, it's been met with "Dean has a storyline! He's protecting Sam!" And then much banging my head against the wall in frustration ensued.

If you'd like me to say that I wish Sam's story had more nuance, I'll happily say that. I'm not sure what that means, exactly (any more than I understand how a non-plot can be not-nuanced... I don't really get what you're hoping for, when you wish that for Dean), but if you want it, I hope you get it.

"You can think the attempts at peacemaking ring hollow all you want. I'm making concessions here"

Except that you WEREN'T, which is why I said your attempts rang hollow. If I thought you were making any kind of concessions at all, I'd have respected it. For example, I respect I quoted above. That's a concession. That's actual peacemaking. The stuff about "I hope you can see how great Dean has been treated!"? Not so much.

"Eventually you'd think the whole world was against you."

Suddenly that just really amused me since it is mostly Dean girls who seem to think the world is against them. There's a difference, I think, in hoping for compromise and wanting people to not be true to themselves. Compromise, I would think, is a good thing, reached by mutual concessions for the betterment of the group. And it just seems like we could stand to use some compromise around here. Or you know, we could just self destruct and hope we end up in fandomwank.

By the way, I get along in life just fine. :) A little neurotic, but anyone posting this much on a whose hotter bracket is pretty much doomed from the start.

The first post of discord I can find is one that says that bibro girls are "pressurizing" people into voting against their true feelings. Prior to that, people said one of three things--"You can't choose!" or "Dean all the way!" or "Sam's way better!" All are the same type of statement said with no malice or underhanded manipulation. I don't see how encouragement to vote bibro is any different from encouragement to vote for Dean. Then people freaked out an accused bibro girls of using "peer pressure" and using that same "tactics" as they do throughout all of fandom to somehow try to suppress the Dean love.

THAT is not true. And even if I were to believe it's true fandom-wide, it wasn't true here, so no, I don't think I'm going to let that slide. No one wronged the Dean girls in the start of this thread and I honestly have looked pretty hard and can see no other way to look at it.

And yes--I've given the opposition, when actually supported with real evidence, some thought. Because I do believe, and I don't think I did before, that really Dean girls feel just as violated as Sam girls do. And so while I may not totally agree that Dean is plot-less, I do believe that Dean girls have some qualm to pick with the way the show is being run. I do notice that the long arguments that say that Dean does indeed get storyline are not actually responded to in and of themselves. Usually people pick up on some other little thing and don't totally address the argument at hand with more than "It's all JA's acting--KRIPKE HATES DEAN!!!!" But for the rest of the matter? I see it. Not that I agree with everything that's been said but I can see why Dean girls WANT it. Because we all want more for our guy. And I see more than anything else that we ALL want what's best for our guy and we'd probably be much better off arguing for BOTH better plot and characterization overall instead of just one or the other. In the end, we'd probably all be best served if they ditched the demon storyline and got us back to the brothers, putting them on equal footing in terms of plot and then hopefully also characterization. Perhaps that's the happy common ground I'm wanting to see this come to. Yes, Dean needs more plot. Yes, Sam needs more characterization. We're stronger when we AGREE on these than pitting ourselves (and our boys) against each other.

And that's creatively selective quoting. Look what is said AFTER the whole "I hope Dean girls can appreciate it." It goes on to say that I hope Kripke gives Dean's storyline more nuance. Which means I hope Kripke better writes Dean's storyline. In other words, that Dean gets more storyline. You can't just select certain parts of what's said. That's not exactly fair. In fact, it's nothing resembling fair.

And maybe capitulate is the wrong word. I think maybe it's more about being diplomatic about things. What's true about all this, is that it's bringing a lot of resentments to the surface--resentments not totally based in this thread. You can think the attempts at peacemaking ring hollow all you want. I'm making concessions here because I'd rather this come to an equitable close as opposed to someone finally just giving up out of sheer frustration with the other side.

Because we're NOT that different. And essentially we WANT the same things. Sometimes I do believe that compromise is the better way to go. It's not about not being true to oneself. Because if we all go on with that stubborn point of view, then really we'll just be a fandom divided for the rest of time. Won't we? Because I have a feeling that people will continual to tell me to stop whining about Sam, that Sam's a rotten guy, and to shut up because I don't do anything for fandom anyway. And all of that is then "okay" because that's how people feel? These are things still unapologized for, and, you know what, yeah, it DOES bother me. And no one cares AT ALL and are more concerned with telling me I'm wrong than building on what we agree on.

So it's not about saying you suddenly believe Dean's storyline is fine. And I guess if you truly think Sam's characterization is amazing and it goes against the very core of who you are to concede that maybe it's been shoddily done, well, then I guess I'd hate to be responsible for an internal ethical breakdown. So I guess that's that and if that's the sticking point we come to and you're not willing to entertain anything to the contrary, then so be it. Perhaps it is time for me to waste my breath (or rather my fingers) in more productive ways. You know, like in trying to subvert fandom in a hypocritical and maniacal way and plot to suppress the love of Dean everywhere.

"The wank began when someone accused bibro girls of trying to undermine Dean's dominance, accusing them of trying to circumscribe the Dean love. When in fact, that wasn't occurring."

Once again, I cannot remotely understand how you interpreted events this way. Read the posts below, and you'll see people saying things like "We can't let one of the Winchesters win, please vote for the third option." You'll see people talking about how it would be a political victory to show that we're a "united front" in thinking both guys are equally hot. You'll see people saying it's "unfair" to vote for one or the other, because they're "a team". (What being a team has to do with hotness is anybody's guess.) You'll see people saying that a vote for Dean is outright cruel to Sam because Sam has "had his face rubbed in the dirt enough"!

Then, someone suggested that it was weird to talk about something like this in terms of fairness or teamwork or fan politics, since it was just a poll about which brother you found hotter.

Then, people agreed that the bullying attitude of "pretend to be bi-bro even if you're not" in fandom was pretty ridiculous and alienating.

So, if we're gonna talk about "who started it" (and what is this, anyway, kindergarten?), I'd say the bullying began when people couldn't STAND to see other people voicing their preferences, then continued with people rejecting that bullying, then continued ad nauseum with Samgirls denying there was any intent to bully in the first place.

And I don't see much flexibility in that.

That's an interesting way to look at how the conflict began. The wank began when someone accused bibro girls of trying to undermine Dean's dominance, accusing them of trying to circumscribe the Dean love. When in fact, that wasn't occurring. The backlash against that was just to point out that those initial suggestions had no ulterior motives and weren't actually condemnations. It was a Dean girl freakout, and I guess I just don't see much flexibility in that. I get riled when people point fingers at people who have done nothing wrong and then act like the world is against them. It isn't, and this thread was perfectly diplomatic until their freakout.

"This entire thing STARTED because people were telling bibro girls they were essentially terrible people for not wanting Dean to win."

Huh. Now, this is just a flat-out lie. This entire thing started because someone said it was ridiculous to make "sympathy" votes, or to insist that people vote for both instead of actually saying what they think. But, you know. Nice try.

"Quite frankly, the term used or not, no one here has given any of my arugments any consideration, so I'm not sure there's any lost ground--just a new argument :)"

Can you honestly say that you've given the opposite arguments any consideration?

"Meeting me half way is not just saying that I hope I can see how fleshed out Sam is, but hoping for more characterization for him as well, just like I'll be willing to argue for better storyline for Dean."

I wished for you what you wished for me. If you didn't think that wish was sufficient, maybe you should take a closer look at your own. Here is what you said:

"I hope that they can see and appreciate Dean's storyline"

If that's what you wish for me, and you see that as meeting me halfway, then my wishes for you would be equally a concession... that you be able to appreciate what has been given to Sam.

"You don't have to agree with me about Sam's characterization or Dean's storyline but some capitulating goes a long way."

I'm not sure why I should capitulate, when I disagree with you. Or why you should capitulate, if you disagree with me. (Speaking of, I've seen you do absolutely nothing of the kind, so your "poor peacemaker me, won't someone do as I do?" rhetoric rings pretty hollow.) I think Sam's been wonderfully characterized. I think Dean has no place in the story beyond what he can do for Sam. These things seem self-evident to me, and I can't just *pretend* to think otherwise because it makes you feel better. I can be nice to you in the saying of it, I can say that it doesn't make anybody a bad person just because things are this way, but I can't and won't LIE about how I feel. That's not worth it.

I can only be true to myself and my perceptions. Doing so in and of itself is not being "mean" to people who perceive things differently, which seems to be what you're saying. If you really cannot handle the fact that people are going to disagree with you in life, and if you perceive disagreement as some sort of insult to you personally... ack. I just don't know how anyone can go through life that way. Eventually you'd think the whole world was against you.

"In fact, no one got riled at all when Sam girls or bibro girls were slandered left and right here."

Oh please. SamGirls have been riled up since someone suggested that voting bibro just so that Dean wouldn't win was a wanky thing to do.

That's what started this whole mess in the first place.

But I do agree it has been cathartic...and a lot like a game of ping-pong. Good times.

Of course people are going to get edgy when insults start flying. Why do you think this got started in the first place? People have been insulting/belittling the bibro/Sam contigent here mercilessly since the conflict started. And I notice no one blinks twice at that. So goes the way of fandom.

I've argued Dean's plot time and again. And actually I've already fleshed out Sam's characterization. So, no. I don't need it done.

And positive feedback? How about meeting half way? Meeting me half way is not just saying that I hope I can see how fleshed out Sam is, but hoping for more characterization for him as well, just like I'll be willing to argue for better storyline for Dean. It would also be nice to hear that Sam girls are important to fandom, that Sam isn't a terrible brother, that JP is a good actor, that Sam girls are not by default hypocritical self-centered jerks who are trying to squelch Dean girls. There have been so few negative comments from Sam girls on this thread and I readily say they're all in bad taste. That's why I've talked about how great Dean is because I KNOW that feels good to hear. Well, I don't really know it, because no one talks about much except how Sam hogs everything and is evil. You can think it's couched rhetorical all you want, I'm trying to build your guy up. And all I'm getting for my troubles is the growing sense that I don't have a brain and should disappear entirely because I don't do anything important for the show anyway except terrorize people.

In the end, this isn't just about storylines and characterization. It's about how fans value each other and the other characters. Not once on this thread have I felt validated as a fan of JP/Sam. You may then say the reverse is true as well, but I'll say it again--Dean's a great character. Jensen's a good actor. And Dean girls ARE vital to the fandom and no one would ever try to argue differently. But the fact that I feel utterly marginalized half the time sets me off on these anonymous rants that simply waste my time and rally people against me. So maybe I started this just to be a pain in the butt. Maybe I started it because I'm tired of seeing Dean girls win every argument without contest. But now that we're here, really, I think it's just that I want someone to say I'm not a fanatical hypocrite who should bow down and thank my lucky stars Dean girls are around.

You don't have to agree with me about Sam's characterization or Dean's storyline but some capitulating goes a long way.

And wow. I didn't see that coming out. I'm just going to post before I reread it and realize I'm an idiot. Though really I'm half expecting to be told I am anyway.

Cathartic is good :) I must admit, I feel much the same way, and it is funny how many Anonymouses we have going on here so I have no idea how many people are actually IN the discussion/argument/fanwank session.

Labels are labels. Call me an EJPG. It's what people have been basically calling me from the beginning anyway (though really, I prefer ESG, or actually ESP--Evil Sam Person, since some males feel this way, so if you're going to insult me, you might as well make me smile when you do). And the behavior I'm pointing toward is from earlier in the thread where Sam girls are flatly called hypocrites and crazy. Sure, there was no label used, but the insult carried the same weight and lacked the same depth as the term EDG.

I'm all for getting rid of stupid insults in fandom, just like I'm all for getting rid of blanket insults with no backing behind them. Demonizing has gone on on both sides here, and I'm more than willing to stay clear of EDG either way because it's not respectful. But neither is half of what has been said against Sam girls here (or in the rest of fandom) and no one blinks twice at it. This entire thing STARTED because people were telling bibro girls they were essentially terrible people for not wanting Dean to win. In fact, no one got riled at all when Sam girls or bibro girls were slandered left and right here. But the use of EDG brings has people up in arms. This would be part of why I feel like Dean's fans definitely are in control of fandom. Quite frankly, the term used or not, no one here has given any of my arugments any consideration, so I'm not sure there's any lost ground--just a new argument :)

So really invalidation exists on all sides here, not that any of this has any validity whatsoever since we're all hiding behind guises of anonymity.

Nevertheless, it was never my intention to insult anyone here nor was it my intention to actually call anyone an EDG, but the term came up contextually in terms of understanding fandom dynamics. There won't be a retraction, but an apology--sure. I'm sorry for the use of the term and I hope quite sincerely it can be put aside.

"I've made the case of how Dean's character is more consistently written and given a great deal of character depth and how he has very real plots."

I must have missed the "plots". Would you remind me?

"No one here has effectively argued how compelling Sam's storyline is, or how good of a character Sam is."

Effectiveness is in the eye of the beholder. (For example, in no way do I find your arguments about Dean's alleged "plots" to be effective... they were ineffective enough that I can't recall them at all.)

I will argue, however, that Sam has been thoroughly characterized, and is every bit as deep and complex as Dean is. Would you like me to detail Sam's evolution from season one?

"So really, in the end, I'm willing to say I get how a Dean girl must feel frustrated and I hope that they can see and appreciate Dean's storyline--better yet, that Kripke gives it a bit more nuance (because love or hate Kripke, his show is not usually refined). Because I would love for you all to be happy and clearly you aren't. ...

I just wish that I could hear the same back the other way every now and then."

Consider it done. I can see where a Sam girl might feel frustrated, and I hope that you can come to appreciate the depth of characterization Kripke has given to Sam, because he's a fully-fleshed out character with an impressive amount of plot and story.

***I've made the case of how Dean's character is more consistently written and given a great deal of character depth and how he has very real plots. None of that is a happy casting accident, but rather lots of time and effort from a writing crew.***

***What should be really obvious is that there are hurt feelings on both sides. The way to fix it? For both sides to grow up and learn to empathize with the other side and not continually belittle the other fans or the other fan's character or actor. I've made every effort to be respectful to other people here and have done nothing but validate Dean. I haven't really gotten much positive back. ***

Yes and others have made the case that Dean is a secondary to Sam within the framework of Kripke's five-year mythology and that Sam is not nearly as deprived of character as some of you insist. Not sure what your point is except that I suspect by positive feedback you mean we should admit that your opinion is the only true and correct one. Neither side is going to do that so maybe you should stop characterizing disagreement as disrespect. That's not very respectful now is it?

***So yeah, I don't have much pity for someone who says how mean the EDG label is and then creates one of his/her own. Kind of shoots oneself in the foot in terms of the idea that people shouldn't use negative terms when you create your own and then take the time to explain it. Evilness exists on both sides. The key is to be above it. But maybe we're not there yet here.***

After you write hundreds of words trying to justify the use of the EDG label, do you really expect anyone slapped with that label to just agree with you? I notice you didn't much care for the EJPG label that I came up with. Not so much fun to rationalize when the shoe's on the other foot now is it?

Y'all bray about respecting Sam as a character and SamGirl opinions but you do not do the same for DeanGirls even if the "discussion" is couched in polite and allegedly respectful language. The motivation comes through loud and clear. If someone holds a particular perspective that is different from yours, it's OK to call them an EDG. Why anyone is shocked when that makes people bitchy and irritated is a complete mystery to me.

But I have to admit this entire discussion has been extremely cathartic since I've repressed so many of these thoughts for so long. Thanks for that. :)

Actually, Anonymous, it was used by the first Anonymous (who was perhaps you, perhaps not) as a valid term. It was said that arguments of the type being exhibited was the reason for the term's usage... ie, the term was valid, and justified by the statements of that Anonymous's debate partners.

Justification of name-calling is, in itself, an invalidation of the arguments that the justifier is making. Period. I give everyone respect right up until the moment they squander their rights to it. Using a term like EDG, defending its usage, explaining why it is justified, and attempting to say "You're no better, because you disagreed with me about such and such"... these things all destroy the respect I may have had for my discussion partner.

Frankly, you (or the previous Anonymous) never should have tried to use EDG to bolster your arguments in the first place. If you (or the previous Anonymous) would like to retract it, I'd be happy to get back to actual discussion about characterization and story structure. I think it will be more productive and interesting than the name-calling (or repetition of my disdain for the name-calling) could ever be.

There may not be a term to dehumanize Sam girls, though look back through the posts and clearly blind accusations are being made against people without the use of a term. As in, generalizations that all Sam girls are crazy hypocrites who are trying to steal the show. These type of comments are equal to that of someone using the term EDG and yet no one seems to be able to call them on such inflammatory language against people who are actually being quite rational and calm in their arguments. Respect is a two-way street, and I haven't seen a lot of it here directed at the viewpoints of people who don't hold the belief that Dean is the best and should be made the central character of the show.

Again, not saying it makes EDG right, I'm just saying the outcry is a little one-sided here. I'm all for respect, but it's BOTH sides who need to be growing up here. Not just one. I don't think anyone actually used the term EDG in a derogatory manner here--it has merely been discussed as a fandom phenomenon, unlike the nasty comments made about Sam girls at large.

EDG is a term used by people who have run out of good arguments. It's basically a way to invalidate your debate opponent by calling them names... an ad hominem attack.

When someone I'm talking to uses that term, I lose all respect for that person and their points. I have never, as a person who has occasionally been called an EDG by Sam fans, felt the need to call THEM names. I dislike their attitude toward me, but I've never sat around and tried to come up with some nasty little moniker I can pin on them to try and invalidate their argument.

Thinking about it, that's probably because the people who use the term EDG do an awfully good job of destroying their own arguments without any assistance from me.

EDG is a term probably used a wide variety of context by a number of people. I see it most often in response to Dean girls who glorify Dean at the expense of Sam. In other words, the ones who talk about how Sam doesn't value his brother, how Sam doesn't deserve Dean as a brother, how Sam is a selfish SOB and how the show just needs to stop focusing on him. The general idea that Sam does nothing right--ever--grows wearisome for some fans. And I think the point with the term is not to group all Dean girls into that group, but rather to section of the extremist viewpoint that does not seem to characterize the majority.

Again, not saying it's a nice thing to say, just explaining. Not that it'll probably do anything but make more people mad. As per usual.

This is a totally pointless argument. Completely. If people are going to believe that Kripke set out to make Dean the scum of the earth and elevate Sam to amazingness, then there is nothing anyone will ever say to the contrary. I think it's a very narrow view that ignores most of what the show presents and a great deal of what Kripke himself says. We hear what we want to hear, I suppose, and I've wasted enough time trying to convince people to the contrary. I've made the case of how Dean's character is more consistently written and given a great deal of character depth and how he has very real plots. None of that is a happy casting accident, but rather lots of time and effort from a writing crew. And summaries from any site are very misleading--they rarely accurately reflect what is the focus of an ep.

The point of the chicken and the egg is merely this--we can't say for sure who started it. What should be really obvious is that there are hurt feelings on both sides. The way to fix it? For both sides to grow up and learn to empathize with the other side and not continually belittle the other fans or the other fan's character or actor. I've made every effort to be respectful to other people here and have done nothing but validate Dean. I haven't really gotten much positive back.

So yeah, I don't have much pity for someone who says how mean the EDG label is and then creates one of his/her own. Kind of shoots oneself in the foot in terms of the idea that people shouldn't use negative terms when you create your own and then take the time to explain it. Evilness exists on both sides. The key is to be above it. But maybe we're not there yet here.

And wow, I really have to agree to disagree on TWoP. I lurk there A LOT. I know that site and it is decidedly driven by Dean girls. Any minor criticism Dean may incur is immediately beat down. Sam girls are afraid of that place and many have left never to return.

So really, in the end, I'm willing to say I get how a Dean girl must feel frustrated and I hope that they can see and appreciate Dean's storyline--better yet, that Kripke gives it a bit more nuance (because love or hate Kripke, his show is not usually refined). Because I would love for you all to be happy and clearly you aren't. Dean's a great character with great depth and his fans are well earned.

I just wish that I could hear the same back the other way every now and then. Not "Oh I love Sam, too." Or "JP's improved so much!" (which is a hugely backhanded compliment). No one here has effectively argued how compelling Sam's storyline is, or how good of a character Sam is. Mostly I've heard, "Sam gets too much attention from Kripke!" and "Sam girls don't realize how lucky they are that Dean girls keep the show going." Well. Great. I should really just get out of this fandom before I feel any more insignficant than I already do.

***If that were the case and Dean was only there to gape at his brother, he wouldn't have had his big damn hero moment in AHBL2. Nor would we see such development of his character throughout all the seasons, culminating in the very important DALDOM.***

Well it looks like that very important bit of character development is to be completely forgotten soon enough according to one of the upcoming CW episode summaries. That's the problem with Dean not being integral to Kripke's five-year master i.e. Sam's Campbellian heroe's journey. Those amazing bits of character development for Dean ultimately mean nothing if they don't service Sam's plot.

***Dean's essential to the plot and to the show's emotional resonance.****

We he certainly is to me but I think that's a happy accident of casting rather than by Kripke's grand design.

***"EDG is probably not a very nice term.*** Nope it isn't. But whatever. I've got my own version. EJPG. That's right folks the evil Jared Padelecki Girl. She can't abide even the mildest questioning that JP may not a soul so perfect that he does indeed fart rainbows and sparkes. And if anyone should suggest otherwise she immediately tries to deflect the negative attention away from JP by screeching every single unflattering and generally unconfirmed rumor that has ever circulated about Jensen Ackles. The EJPG is indeed a creature of rare subtlety, or you know, not. At least these alleged EDG's are only talking about fictional characters. Not so with the EJPGs.

"On TWoP? Dean is like GOD on that site. There are very few threads there that a Sam girl even dares venture on for fear of her own sanity."

I have to disagree with you about this. Dean is belittled and criticized a lot on TWoP.

"EDG is probably not a very nice term."

Ya' think? No, it is not a nice term, not at all; it's an insult. This phrase is used to try and invalidate arguments made by individuals just because they support Dean. By calling someone an "Evil Dean Girl", people are trying to invalidate an individual's reasonings and statements and make it sound like there is a hive-like mentality and therefore, the individual poster's arguments should not be taken seriously.

In my opinion, your "chicken" and "egg" statement is correct.

"I think it would be bandied around far less if more sensitivity was given to Sam's character."

I disagree, I think Sam fans love to throw that phrase around, whether it's true or not, at least on TWoP, and that especially includes the recapper (and former moderator). I also don't know what you want when you say "more sensitivity" when talking about Sam. More sensitivity to what? Kripke has presented Sam as the one we're supposed to sympathize with since the Pilot episode.

For godsakes people it was just a hottie contest. How are we still debating who is the better brother. For the record neither IMO is. I love them both!

On TWoP? Dean is like GOD on that site. There are very few threads there that a Sam girl even dares venture on for fear of her own sanity.

For clarification: the term EDG is not used against people who interpret the story differently. It's used to classify a general attitude wherein Sam is demeaned in light of Dean. Nothing Sam can do is ever enough for his brother in the minds of some factions of the fandom. Nothing Sam does is ever right in some factions of the fandom. This is what elicits the term--people don't like to hear their character bashed and when it comes to Sam's character, it is a consistent thing, which is what some Sam girls get frustrated with.

EDG is probably not a very nice term. I think it would be bandied around far less if more sensitivity was given to Sam's character. Doesn't make it right to use, but I'm offering a clarification, not an endorsement of usage. Undoubtedly, this could become a chicken and the egg argument were it is stated that Sam wouldn't be slandered if Sam girls didn't use the term, but in the end that's a pointless pursuit to go into.

And Kripke's original idea was actually far different from anything else. The evolution of the show started in a totally different direction with a journalist, I believe. It was only through much revision and reprocessing that Kripke hit upon the notion of FAMILY, which is what he finally went with as the concept of the show, much to his benefit.

And honestly, Kripke can talk all about about his intentions or what he thinks or wants or whatever. The main thing I know is that I've seen the show. A lot. And Dean is in no way secondary to Sam except in some demonic hierarchy, and even that has hints of it not being the case--clearly someone wants Dean's soul and we still don't know how or why yet. It may indeed be a ploy to get Sam or it may indeed have something to do with Dean himself. It doesn't matter. The key arc to this show has always been the familial bond and how Sam and Dean interact with each in that familial structure.

I don't recall Dean ever admitting that Sam was always right--nor do I see evidence that Sam is always "right" in the context of the show. If anything, S1 was about proving Sam WRONG. Both boys have come a long way in how they view things, and ultimately they've both come to reinforce the standards their father put out there for them about the value of hunting. If you also listen to Kripke, he says that Sam's greatest weakness right now is the fact that he's making excuses for himself. Hence--Sam is NOT right, in fact Sam is on track to be very wrong.

Dean is shown again and again to be a hero. Kripke can conceptualize all he wants to, but when push comes to shove and episodes are written, it is Dean who is the emotional touchpoint and he is often the heroic one. Even with Sam's morality as it was in S1 and S2, Dean was more often than not "right." Sam's "rightness" is almost in theory only, and he is shown to lack a certain reality when it comes to what must be done as a hunter. When he finally gets to that point in S3, he does so without humanity or compassion for the most part. Dean, however, is the one who we get to see struggling, thus making him our identifiable hero.

Blame is always a two-way street, and that's key. But this sense of I'm going to do it because they do is not helpful. I won't belittle Dean at any point, at least not in a public way. My own issues with characters is my own thing, but as far as unity of fandom goes, it's not helpful to sit and talk about how much I hate this about Dean or how much I hate this about what Dean does because it's only going to hurt the feelings of others. It's stupid, but we all, to some extent, must know it's true. It hurts us when our favorite is belittled. And maybe I'm blind to it, but Sam gets a LOT more crap in fandom that Dean EVER has. Again I point out, Dean is the selfless heroic one, while Sam is the selfish bastard, and very few people even have the guts to argue to the contrary. For a Sam girl, that sucks. I don't condone blind bashing of Dean either, and anyone who does that should be ashamed.

Dean has done so much more than gape at his brother's powers. Dean's been the active one of the two throughout all the seasons. He's been the one to take action, to do things, to make decisions. If anyone has been the passive bystander, it's been Sam. I have argued repeated how this isn't the Sam Show and how it's not being created to be the Sam show. Dean's connection to the story is just as important if not more important than Sam's because he IS the emotional center of the show. I do not believe for one second that Kripke has decided to make it only about Sam. If that were the case and Dean was only there to gape at his brother, he wouldn't have had his big damn hero moment in AHBL2. Nor would we see such development of his character throughout all the seasons, culminating in the very important DALDOM. Dean's essential to the plot and to the show's emotional resonance. If that doesn't prove that Kripke wants Dean to be a hero, too, then I really don't know what is. Dean IS a hero. Kripke made him one, not just said it. And if he's not a hero, then why does everyone think he's heroic? Even good acting couldn't pull that off.

The show and Kripke have been more than fair to Dean and Jensen. The theory that Kripke hates Dean just doesn't make sense.

As I see it if Dean wasn't there to care and worry over Sam and be there at his every beg and call the fans would hate Dean. I love Dean because he's the underdog of the two.

If Kripke wasn't such a stickler for his "Sam the boyking hero", he could actually improve the story by making it about two heroes instead of one. Yeah, he said Dean's a hero. So is Bobby, so was John, so is Ellen, so was Gordon in his own way, Henriksen, and the list goes on. But Sam is the story.

This was promoted as the story of Two Brothers on One Journey. That's what drew me in. Now Kripke has made it the story of One Hero's Journey. Well, I guess I picked the wrong brother, therefore the wrong hero so now I'm stuck watching the story of Sam and hoping that Dean at least gets something decent to do besides gape in awe as his brother "becomes" this extraordinary being that will enthrall us all.

Whatever Kripke. Your seem to be very rigid in your ideas, which, as a writer, really makes for disappointing storytelling.

I will watch for Dean, but superheros bore me to death. That would include Demon Kings/Anti-Christs.

The italics didn't come through in my post below, so I'm clarifying my remarks:

"The fact that Dean girls feel like they need to belittle Sam to even some "score" is truly part of the reason fandom is divided. I hardly ever see anyone criticizing Dean, though I'm sure you'll all tell me oh so nicely to the contrary. I was feeling optimistic about the direction of this thread, but now not so much."

My response to the above post:

Just as you say that some Dean fans belittle Sam, some Sam fans belittle Dean. The blame for any division in this fandom does not fall on just one side.

Dean is *constantly* being belittled and criticized on television without pity. Yes, there are Dean supporters on that site, but there are also many who criticize him.

The fact that Dean girls feel like they need to belittle Sam to even some "score" is truly part of the reason fandom is divided. I hardly ever see anyone criticizing Dean, though I'm sure you'll all tell me oh so nicely to the contrary. I was feeling optimistic about the direction of this thread, but now not so much.

Just as you say that some Dean fans belittle Sam, some Sam fans belittle Dean. The blame for any division in this fandom does not fall on just one side.

Dean is *constantly* being belittled and criticized on television without pity. Yes, there are Dean supporters on that site, but there are also many who criticize him.

If the focus of the show is family, then really all either boy is really important for is being the other's brother. For being special, no one actually cares that much about Sam on the show. The demon spent most of his time talking to Dean or about Dean than he did Sam.

Sam's "powers" do not make Dean a sidekick. Sidekicks don't get the character depth Dean gets. Sam is not the star of the show. The show could equally be seen as one brother's struggle to protect his brother--making Dean the central emotional point and Sam the tangential subject. The deal storyline has done far more to explore Dean's character than Sam's--with Sam, we see him "going dark" without much insight into his brain (we get a small glimpse in MM and clearly in MS). For Dean? We've seen him trying to cover it up and then his slow unraveling of that forged confidence, which occurs in M7, TKAA, and then so on throughout the season, finally coming to a head in DALDOM where Dean had a huge turning point in his character and it was full pay off for what the deal storyline made vividly clear in AHBL2, that Dean has self-esteem issues. This all has been brewing since the first season, with Dean's obedience to his father and his naive desire to bring his family back together. This is a HUGE PLOT that has clearly drawn in TONS of people, which is why so many people are drawn to Dean. This has all be written and crafted for Dean, and drawn out far more consistently and with far more grace (though not flawless) than Sam's evil storyline. In this context, it is Dean's storyline that has anchored the show, and Sam's storyline, his powers, his "chosen one" status--all of it, merely serves to further explore DEAN and create the sympathetic position that is Dean's. You can love Jensen's acting all you want, but he has stuff to work with. It's not great writing by any stretch of the imagination, but it's there and it's far easier to work that than Sam's coldness, often without any exploration, this season.

As for Sam's emotional arc? It's harder to trace and pulled through with much less nuance than Dean's. We see Sam oscillate between disliking the hunting life to being gung ho in S1--arguably over his grief for Jess (which, ask Sam girls, and I think they were hoping for more--Provenance aside, his girlfriend died and we didn't get anything resembling a breakdown). Much more in S1 was his understanding and acceptance of his family's lifestyle, learning to understand where his brother and father came from and with John's death ultimately that hunting is his choice now, with no sense of if he regrets leaving or not (and don't even mention to Sam girls the sudden disappearance of Sam's daddy issues). The rest of S2 revolved around Sam's "destiny" in which he progressed from "What if I'm evil?" to "I think I'm evil" to "I'm evil Dean, kill me." I suppose you could call this character development, but Sam's dialogue was so choppy and random and so often even Sam's episodes and feelings gave the emotional contact to Dean--as in, in Playthings we see Sam's fears come to light, yet the overwhelming sentiment is from Dean's POV where he is forced to promised his beloved brother something he can't do. HotH is as much about Sam's faith as it is Dean's, and it's Dean who gets the emotional revelation of the episode. And even Heart, which is very Sammy based, in the end is given to Dean through the last shot, making it again about Dean not being able to protect his brother from such things. Sam's character development is secondary to Dean's more often than not (some exceptions aside).

If you want to say Kripke's not pandering to Dean girls, fine. Just don't say he's pandering to Sam girls, because he's not. He's working his own agenda and he's neither a Sam girl or a Dean girl. We'd all be better off saying, "You know, I never realized you felt that way. The other brother really is amazing and he deserves more time. Let's work together to glorify and support both brothers, and Kripke really is letting us ALL down." I'm willing to play nice if others will, and you won't see me bashing Dean ever. I'm all for getting rid of Sam's powers altogether and taking us back to two brothers, hunting things and figuring each other out.

"Sam's main role is as Dean's brother and I don't think that makes him pathetic."

That is Sam's main role? Really? I... just don't understand how you can say that with a straight face. Sam's main role is to be the reason all this is happening, as well as the executor of the plot. He's the Boy King. He's the Anti Christ. He's the reason for the entire series, Kripke's avatar (as he has said more than once), the protagonist.

"And really, how does Sam going evil set him up to be a hero?"

Again, I'm not really sure if you're being serious or disingenuous here, because it's so completely obvious and cliched. Sam gets superpowers. Sam goes "evil" (read: beige) with the superpowers, then turns his back on the temptation to go REALLY evil, and uses his superpowers to save his hapless brother and the world in one fell swoop, becoming the Hero he was always born to be. What else do you suppose Kripke intends to do with Sam, on his Hero's Journey (which Kripke has also alluded to several times)? Sam's on the hero's journey here, not Dean. Dean's just kinda along for the ride, facilitating Sam's progression to Ultimate Heroism.

"I'm just saying--the conspiracy theory that Kripke created a character just to hate him makes no sense to me"

I don't think he hates him, per se. Dean's based on his brother, and I doubt he hates his brother. But Dean is an addition, a side note to Sam's Heroic Journey. If you read Kripke's original conceptions of these characters, Dean was the screwup to Sam's Mr. Perfect. Dean was always wrong, and Sam was always right, even when it didn't make sense (ie, Dean chose hunting, and Sam chose school, right? Yet, Dean admits Sam was always right and hunting is worthless. Then, he attempts to abandon people in peril while Sam gets on his moral high horse to tell him they must stay and help the innocent victims... even though Sam is the one who wanted to stop helping innocent victims in the first place! It makes no sense! And yet, Sam is The Hero, and Dean is The Sidekick, and so Sam must always be right.)

Essentially, Dean is there to serve Sam's story. He's not there to move the story in his own right, the way Sam is. If that makes me an EDG, well. That's your label, not mine. And it's pretty revolting to me that you label people that way for analyzing a story differently than you do. That's something Sam fans tend to do... ad hominem attacks are you all's specialty, it seems... but it massively weakens your arguments.

"I think Kripke's pandered often to Dean girl's complaints, because they are loudest and most commonly heard, I would just suggest he hasn't done it very well."

How has Kripke pandered to the DeanGirls? We've bee bitching about how they were dumbing Dean down since the middle of season one. So what do we got in Season 3? More dumbDean than ever.

We've been begging for Dean to have some importance to the story besides just being Sam' brother. So what do we get in season 3? Several reiterations of it's all about Sam.

We've been saying making Sam Speshul and Chosen and having powers turns Dean into a sidekick. So what do we get in Season 3? Sam is elevated to the level of boyking anti-christ.

Meanwhile SamFans complain that he doesn't get enough character development and the pretty much the entire deal story-line is handed over to exploring Sam's character.

So I'm not seeing a lot of DeanFan pandering from this end of the great divide.

Wow. Okay then. Sam admits he's wrong quite often--he did in Bugs, he did in Asylum, the fact that he totally abandoned the idea of college, the end of ELAC, etc. I could go on. But we all see what we want to see in the end.

Sam's weaknesses maybe aren't as commonly explained on screen, but that would be part of the lack of characterization. They don't explore Sam's weaknesses because in general they're not doing as much for his character. They have demons calling Dean out on his dependency on his family this season to spur along his realization in DALDOM. It all goes somewhere, and it's not like we should take the word of demons as God's honest truth.

If you choose to see WIAWSN as a sign that Kripke thinks Dean's worthless, then I guess I'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

I really don't get how Dean's role as Sam's brother is pathetic. Sam's main role is as Dean's brother and I don't think that makes him pathetic. And really, what has Sam done to show his heroism? He had one moment of action (or inaction) in AHBL 1 that cemented who he was--Dean got every other heroic action. Dean was the one to save his family. Dean was the hero in all of that storyline revolving around the YED. That's DEAN. Not Sam. No matter how much it was "all about Sam" the demon was far more concerned with Dean in the end--it's more than snippets from demonic dialogue. It's what we see in the show, whose feelings we get to experience (Dean's more than Sam's most of the time). And really, how does Sam going evil set him up to be a hero? The way it seems to be going, Dean will have to save his brother from himself, thus making DEAN the hero, not Sam. Sam going darkside to save Dean is not heroic. Nor is it what Sam girls want.

Isn't the thing we love most about these two is their utter screwed up codependency? That they hinge totally on each other? That whatever one does, the other does? Sam's all about Dean and Dean's all about Sam and that's why we love to explore their relationship so much. It's not diminishing either boy. And it could be "all about Dean" and I'd still think that was the draw. Give us emotional depth to each boy, and the show will be golden. Plots don't make people love shows. Characters do. And Dean's character is being thoroughly explored. I could care less about the whole demon plot. The whole war is boring anyway. Give me character moments.

And that's the thing. Sam girls haven't been crying out for lots and lots of evil Sam. Some, maybe, but a majority miss the little brother we met in S1. We've lost him entirely for this dark, brooding, morally questionable blob that sits counter to Dean's morality.

No Sam girl here has argued that Dean go away. At all. That's a figment of your imaginations that you keep flinging around angry and going off on rants about. We want a show about brothers. Supposedly we all do. We just think there are different ways of getting there.

And, by the way, no one admitted to it being a shell of a storyline. Read the sentence. "You can call it a shell of a storyline" does not say the poster necessarily agrees that it is.

If people are going to persist and think that Kripke hates Dean and that only by Jensen's amazing skills is Dean anything at all, then really, no one will every convince you otherwise. But that attitude, right there, is what earns the EDG fanatical title. I'm just saying--the conspiracy theory that Kripke created a character just to hate him makes no sense to me and I still don't know of a time when he's come out and seriously said, "I think Dean is a terrible character. His only value is to juxtapose Sam." Kripke doesn't hate Dean. He doesn't hate Jensen. But if that's the sticking point, then it is, and I'm not going to go back and forth and argue with people who aren't actually trying to see the other side of things or be remotely rational.

The fact that Dean girls feel like they need to belittle Sam to even some "score" is truly part of the reason fandom is divided. I hardly ever see anyone criticizing Dean, though I'm sure you'll all tell me oh so nicely to the contrary. I was feeling optimistic about the direction of this thread, but now not so much.

****Sam's wonderfulness is reinforced over and over and over. It's a big part of the reason why I find it necessary to point out his flaws... because no one in the show ever seems to call him on his crap, whereas Dean is called on his all.the.freaking.time. ***

So much freakin' word on this. I f I have to hear one more time how smart/strong/wonderful Sam is and how dumb/weak/useless Dean is from another character on the show, I will scream bloody murder.

***It seems to me that the reason he created the whole "deal" was in response to the outcry for more Dean plot.***

Well it seems to me that the whole point of Dean's deal was so that Sam could go darkside.

"The thing is, most Sam girls see Dean as already integral to the plot"

Of course they do. And most Dean girls see Sam as already having a great deal of characterization. The point being...?

"He's saying Dean in another world could have been much less than he is in reality."

Yes. Because in this reality, he had hunting. There is nothing intrinsic to Dean that makes him a decent person, according to Kripke. It's all nurture, no nature.

"Sam is the one who will admit wrong (usually) and Dean is the one who comes out looking right and rosy"

Would you be referring to the time Dean said Sam was stronger than him? Or that he admired him for standing up to John, and wished he could be more like Sam? Or when Dean said Sam was more moral than he was?

Sam's wonderfulness is reinforced over and over and over. It's a big part of the reason why I find it necessary to point out his flaws... because no one in the show ever seems to call him on his crap, whereas Dean is called on his all.the.freaking.time.

""". It seems to me that the reason he created the whole "deal" was in response to the outcry for more Dean plot. """

You mean the Dean sells his soul so we can watch Sam go evil plot? The plot where Dean can't do anything because of the clause that says he can't do anything? That's a Sam plot, along with all the other Sam plots that will come to play in the next two seasons now that Kripke's dealt with the "Dean" plot so he can go on to the bit Sam the Hero of the story plot.

Tell me again how Sam fans are being ignored? Is it the Sam turning evil? The Sam getting his powers? The Sam becoming badass? The Sam getting characterization? All the things we've seen in S3 and will be seeing in S4 and 5?

Tell me again how Kripke is catering to Dean fans by giving him a flimsy half-assed plot that had nothing to do with Dean and everything to do with Sam?

Or do you mean Kripke's half-assed attempt at pacifying the Dean girls by calling Dean a hero.

"""He's always said it's about family--and it always comes back to the brothers' sacrifice to one another.""" Kripke has talked the talk, but I don't see family here. I see it's all about Sam. Mary's secret will be all about Sam, which makes it funny since she was also Dean's mother, but hey, minor details. Sam will be finding about his past, his powers, his destiny while Dean shines Sam's shoes wondering where Sam's cape went to.

"""The thing is, most Sam girls see Dean as already integral to the plot
"""

Of course he is. He's Sam's brother and protector. That's all Dean needs to be to be involved in the plot. As long as it's about Sam, Dean is part of the plot, what more do us pathetic Dean fans want? Ungrateful of us to ask for more. Dean should be honored to be the brother of such an heroic and mighty figure that Sam Winchester is. We should just keep our mouths shut and be happy.

"""It's been subtly reinforced. Sam is the one who will admit wrong (usually) and Dean is the one who comes out looking right and rosy"""

Please give some samples of this because I remember Scarecrow quite well and Dean admitting he was wrong and telling Sam he admired him. I don't recall hearing the same from Sam except that sorry scene in Fresh Blood where Sam says he looked up to Dean. Really? Is this the same brother you've looked down at for the past two years Sam?

"""You can think it’s a shell of a storyline, but it’s still a storyline. It’s still a plot, no matter how much you like it or not. Having a shell of a storyline is better than having a shell of a character"""

Well it's nice to know that you admitted the "deal" in nothing more than a shell of a storyline and it really does have to do with Sam. As for characterization, I would say that Sam had a lot of characterization this season and I saw a lot all the other seaons. The problem is, the Sam fans want the show to concentrate only on Sam for everything and have Dean is nothing more than Sam's shadow. Well, Kripke should kill off Dean and give Sam fans the show they want then. However, since the ratings will plummet, I doubt he'll go there so the Sam fans get stuck with having to share the spotlight, small as it is, with Dean. Suck it up, since we have to watch the Sam Winchester show just to get some Dean time.

"""And honestly, if Kripke thought Dean was a total loser then why on earth would he develop Dean's character like he does? I """
It wasn't Kripke, it was Jensen, much to Kripke's surprise and chagrin.

I've heard the commentary from WIAWSN. And he's not saying Dean's a total loser. He's saying Dean in another world could have been much less than he is in reality. The lifestyle Dean grew up in called on him to be a lot, and that's the reason we got the big damn hero that we now see. I would think WIAWSN showed that better than anything.

Kripke says a lot of stuff. He says that Bela and Ruby are the best things ever. We still don't believe him on that one. Why? Because we've seen the show and know they don't work. We're smarter than his blind comments. And honestly, if Kripke thought Dean was a total loser then why on earth would he develop Dean's character like he does? I hear him validating both brothers and their relationship more than I do anything else. It's a show about two screwed up brothers trying to make sense of their screwed up life.

"I don't think that Kripke's setting out with this intention to make Dean a pathetic loser and I'm really tired of hearing it because there's no evidence he's trying to do that."

Did you see the commentary for What Is and What Should Never Be? Kripke said exactly this... that Dean would be a loser without hunting. Basically, hunting is all Dean has going for him, and other than that, he's just a worthless, shiftless barfly.

Seriously. Check it out. No one wants to believe this stuff, but when he keeps saying it, time after time after time, it's really hard for us to think anything else.

I guess the biggest thing I'm still struggling with is that I don't see Kripke saying the show is all about Sam. He's always said it's about family--and it always comes back to the brothers' sacrifice to one another. It seems to me that the reason he created the whole "deal" was in response to the outcry for more Dean plot. I think Kripke's pandered often to Dean girl's complaints, because they are loudest and most commonly heard, I would just suggest he hasn't done it very well.

Also, I don't believe for a second that Kripke is perfect and we shouldn't question the guy. I'm in the anti-S3 camp all around, for plot and characterization of both boys. Personally, I have no idea what Kripke was thinking when he started this season. To me, Kripke can talk all he wants, but the proof is in the show. The writing of the show tends to run to Dean emotionally, which I think is far more substantial about the creator's and the writer's true intentions than any sound byte ever could be. Because no matter how many times he says Sam's the surrogate for the audience, he's just not. If he was, then he wouldn't still carry around the "selfish" brand throughout fandom.

And really, to me I'd just be glad that Kripke listens to Dean girls. Because there are many Sam girls who feel like they're being completely ignored--because they don't like the evil!Sam storyline, they don't like anything about anything Kripke's done with Sam and yet Kripke keeps pushing his own agenda anyway. I'm not one of Kripke's big supporters--on any level.

I think most Sam girls have no problem with equality in the show. The thing is, most Sam girls see Dean as already integral to the plot. This is personal, but it would seem like really crappy storytelling to have them pull a "Special Dean" twist by this point. But hey, I'm all for getting rid of Sam's connection to demons and letting them go back to figuring out how to be a family.

So I get frustration with Kripke, I really do, because I guarantee I feel just as frustrated. But I'm not going to go around and start saying it's a big conspiracy to make Sam look like a selfish bastard. I would just say it's crappy writing. It's not that Dean girls don't have reason to be mad, but I don't think that Kripke's setting out with this intention to make Dean a pathetic loser and I'm really tired of hearing it because there's no evidence he's trying to do that. Kripke's had three seasons and all he's done is drop character point after character point with Sam (i.e. Sam's father issues, Sam's faith, etc.). Even with that, I don't think there's a plot against him, just some huge oversights.

I think the original point was of course we all say we want equality on some level (at least the sane among us). But the fact is, if we were to never get it, I would still much prefer depth of characterization over plot points. Which goes to show that I really do feel like Sam is getting gypped with characterization. I'm curious of Dean girls would be willing to trade the depth of Dean's characterization for Sam's plot points and be content if we can't have our ideal balance of both. The point there being, who is getting better served by the current system in the show--Sam or Dean?

It's funny how we all see the polarization differently. I've always seen it as the reality that Dean has ALWAYS been painted as the sympathetic character. Even for all Sam had suffered, we were brought to feel for Dean more often than not. It's been subtly reinforced. Sam is the one who will admit wrong (usually) and Dean is the one who comes out looking right and rosy. I always think of Bugs where Sam talks about how he felt as a teenager. He comes to accept what Dean tells him, but Dean never comes back and validates that it must have been tough for Sam (which I'm not going to get into that argument now). Therefore, we, as the audience, are inclined to think, "Gee, I'm so glad Sam learned tos ee the light and appreciate his family more. Dean's right!" Which is a very one-sided view of how things seemed to have been in the Winchester family. In terms of the family, of the hunt, of most things, Dean is much more the "right" one more often than not. We see him question himself some (a la Bloodlust) but even then it just reinforces that Dean is the one we should respect more. Sam's the selfish bastard who abandoned his family and tried to fix it all too little, too late and is now going to negate his brother's sacrifice by going darkside. That's not the audience surrogate. That's the automatic lesser brother.

So I guess my ultimate point is, we all really do feel the same. And we really would be more effective listening to each other and feeling each other's pain rather than pointing fingers and calling names. I can't speak for everyone, but that's all I've wanted since day one, and it's the only reason I bother going off here at all--because it has often seemed very one-sided to me.

"People bemoan Sam’s characterization but don’t seem to go out and complain that the creator is fundamentally against them... "

I find this statement more than a little disingenuous, considering Kripke has made no secret of the fact that the show is about Sam's destiny. So of course SamGirls aren't going to complain about the story not being about their guy because so far it does appear to be all about Sam.

Deanfans do not have the same sense of confidence because after almost three seasons we have only been shown how Dean fits into Sam's story. For example, the deal storyline appears to have been was put into play just so that Kripke could make Sam go darkside. There could be more to the deal depending on who the contract holder is and why it wants Dean so badly, but spoilers do not look promising.

At this point I'm just grateful that they they let Dean work out a couple of his self-esteem issues along the way.

I want balance for this show. I do. I want Sam to have more in-depth characterization and I want Dean to be as important to the overall story as Sam. I honestly don't think we can get the former without the latter. How many of you SamGirls are willing to say the same?

"The real question is: do Dean girls think the same?"

Dean Fans have argued over and over again, even in this wanky blog, that the best way to bring balance to the show is to make the mytharc about both brothers. That way Sam's characterization doesn't get short-changed to move the plot and Dean has something more to do than emote over Sam's destiny. But as always, those arguments get drowned out by the Sam Girls screeching DeanGirls are mean and rabid and should leave fandom. And don't forget the ever popular Kripke is a God therefore you must trust him to be a true, blue fan.

The reason Dean Fans feel that Kripke favors Sam is because he has said it time and time again. He has said that he relates to Sam, sees himself as Sam, that Sam is the audience surrogate, the smart one, that Sam is our hero, that Dean would be the biggest loser on the planet without hunting and having Sammy to worry about.

Sure since then he's made the token comment about Dean being a regular-Jo hero or that he sees himself as Sam but wants to be like Dean. But those comments came much later and after much outrage so they feel very much like he is just trying to pacify Dean Fans because he knows damned well he can't afford to lose them.

Kripke was the one that set up the Sam vs. Dean mentality by focusing his entire story on one brother's destiny instead of the destiny of the Winchester family. Unfortunately, that's completely polarized the fandom . So instead of demanding better writing, plotting and characterization overall, we are just fighting each other.